Transcript
Dr. Adam Gazzaley (00:00:00) - Using sensors on a device like a touch screen or accelerometer, that data is used multiple times a second to update the challenges and rewards in a way that's appropriate to you. That's the closed loop. Data flowing into a processor about how you're performing, an environment, both challenges, reward, and stimuli being updated in real time to give you a personalized experience.
Daniel Darling (00:00:34) - Welcome to the 5 Year Frontier Podcast, a preview of the future through the eyes of the innovators shaping our world. Through short, packed discussions, I seek to bring you a glimpse of what a key industry could look like five years out. I'm your host, Daniel Darling, a Venture Capitalist at Focal, where I spend my days with founders at the very start of their journey to transform an industry.
The best have a distinct vision of what's to come, a guiding north star they're building towards, and that's what I'm here to share with you. In today's episode, we're talking about the future of the brain. In it we cover digital therapies, psychedelics, co evolving with artificial intelligence, technology's impact on society at large, and reinventing how clinical trials could be run.
Our guide will be Dr. Adam Gazzaley, a Distinguished Professor of Neurology, Physiology and Psychiatry at , and the Founder and Executive Director of Neuroscape. a neuroscience center engaged in technology creation and scientific research of novel brain assessment and optimization approaches.
Adam is also co-founder of Akili, a company developing therapeutic video games, and it brought the very first FDA approved game to the market. On top of that, he's also the founder of Jazz Venture Partners, a venture capital firm with close to a billion under management, investing experiential technology to improve human performance.
He's been a scientific advisor for dozens of companies ranging from Apple to General Electric and PepsiCo, and Adam has filed multiple patents and authored over 180 scientific articles. Adam, thanks so much for coming to talk with me today.
Dr. Adam Gazzaley (00:02:05) - Thanks for having me.
Daniel Darling (00:02:06) - The common thread to your amazing career has been highlighting the role that technology or software and hardware specifically can play to treat the issues impacting the brain.
Issues ranging from ADHD to depression to trauma and digital therapies that can have a more effective and safer impact than pharmaceuticals, which is pretty amazing. Can you begin by walking us through what digital therapies you've developed?
Dr. Adam Gazzaley (00:02:33) - Yeah, you know, maybe it's helpful just to, as a foundation, the, the concept behind this.
I think people are very familiar with the idea that a molecule can help you, right? From colds to if you have high cholesterol, to the idea that we could take a molecule to fix our brains. But as we know that that hasn't panned out in the ideal way, it doesn't help everyone, it has lots of side effects, it's not targeted.
The idea of a digital therapy, and then I'll just run through our list as, as, as a tool to help people is really built on the premise that our brains have this phenomenon known as plasticity, that it modifies itself, its structure, its chemistry, its function, all in response to experiences. And it's the entire basis of learning.
It's why therapy exists. And so the long story short is that digital technologies can be used to deliver experiences, very high level targeted personalized experiences. We'll talk a little about closed loop and that can be a new type of medicine to improve brain function when it is impaired and even to help people who aren't, you know, at the level of a clinical condition.
So that's, that's the underlying basis. And. With that as a premise, the idea is what type of digital experiences might be most effective. There's lots of opportunities to, you know, think about the full breadth of digital offerings that can exist, but I was really attracted to the idea of delivering it through a video game.
There's nothing magic about a video game per se in this context, just that it's fun and it's engaging. And so that Immersion in the moment drives plasticity, same way that being immersed in your physical workout would drive it. The fact that it's fun and has reward cycles brings you back again and again and creates better compliance.
So, we've been building for 16 years now, video games. They're not all video games, but many of them are. In my research center at UCSF called Neuroscape, all designed with this goal of improving cognition. The very first one we built was a game called NeuroRacer which had, has a long history. We could, we could talk about that, but it became the basis of a.
publication in Nature in 2013, showing that this gameplay could lead to improvements in attention and short term memory in older adults outside of the game. And then we have many other games. Some of them are mobile, phone based, tablet, just because it's so accessible, but also head mounted display virtual reality games.
So Labyrinth, Engage, Coherence, MetaTrain, These are all other games that we built. They have different mechanics, but they're all sort of these closely personalized games and they have different benefits on different aspects of cognition.
Daniel Darling (00:05:16) - Amazing. And what kind of things are you looking to treat using this technology?
Dr. Adam Gazzaley (00:05:20) - We tend to not focus our efforts on specific clinical conditions. We more. Accurately target cognitive operations that we want to improve. So example, Endeavor, which is what NeuroRacer became, is this very high level cognitive control task, multitasking, resisting distraction that's meant to improve attention ability, specifically sustained attention.
Another game, very different, MetaTrain, which is an eyes closed game that rests on the principles of concentrative meditation, also targets sustained attention. But for example, Labyrinth, which is a virtual reality navigation game, is targeting improvements in long term memory, high fidelity memory. So once you show and document in research trials that you can improve those abilities, and we tend to start with healthy populations, both seniors and children, or young adults, both of whom can improve in those domains.
Then we move to the many clinical populations that have impairments in those areas. So instead of targeting dyslexia or autism or ADHD, we target the cognitive operations and then apply them to populations that have deficits in those abilities.
Daniel Darling (00:06:40) - Makes sense. And you describe this as working as a closed loop experience for the patient, a system that learns and adapts as it's being used or played.
So how does that work exactly?
Dr. Adam Gazzaley (00:06:52) - That's the special sauce. That's everything that I care about. I never give a talk or any description of our work without spending a little time. Every patent that we've ever filed, every, you know, game we've ever studied are all closed loop and it's you know, first I want to note that it's in contrast to our normal medicine.
So a pill is very open loop. You take it, you have some effects, some side effects, you usually subjectively monitor them. You go back to your doctor maybe a month or two later and then some non database decision is given to you to go up and down the dose. That's very. Open loop, right? It means that there's a sort of long, non quantitative cycle between an intervention and how you update it.
A closed loop is the opposite. In an ideal closed loop scenario, the intervention is updated every single second or multiple times during a second based upon how it's working. So let's say a sort of simple closed loop is what Exists in our game in that your performance metrics, how accurate, how fast you are, how you're navigating using an accelerometer.
So using sensors on a device like a touch screen or accelerometer, that data is used multiple times a second to update the challenges and rewards in a way that's appropriate to you. That's the closed loop data flowing into a processor about how you're performing an environment, both challenges, reward, and stimuli being updated in real time to give you a personalized experience so that it's not so hard that you give up because it's just frustrating and not so easy that you give up because you're bored.
And so it's like the, Ultimate personal trainer, I mean, that's what a personal trainer is trying to do is essentially create a closed loop. They're looking at you and saying, you know what, we're going to go up five pounds. Now, they're limited by their ability to know exactly how you're performing, and they're also not able to adjust.
The challenges that you're getting, you know, and as fine as we can do digitally, but that's the basic idea of a closed loop. And it gives us, you know, a real personalized treatment, something that we have never accomplished with a molecular treatment.
Daniel Darling (00:09:04) - And can you get that kind of data and insights around what is happening in the brain itself and start to have that feedback loop around what's working driven in that environment?
Dr. Adam Gazzaley (00:09:14) - It's a great question. So the most accessible data is performance data, right? And that's where we started, but that performance data is still the end of a long pathway of processing that might start with the first intake of sensory information, the decision making, the motoric response, all of which are essentially invisible, just result in an output of how fast and accurate you are.
And so if we can capture more upstream data that is driving that, we could potentially get more fine tuned closed loops. And that's what we're working on. So recording both neural data as well as other physiological data. So we have studies using heart rate, heart rate variability, facial expression, eye tracking, electrodermal activity, in addition to brain activity from EEG and understanding what we can do by feeding that data into the closed loop system.
So the, the system is adaptive, not just based on your performance, but based on your state at the time. For example, your level of attention, your arousal, your mood, that's the direction that we're heading in. And we already started yielding really interesting results with that approach. We have three publication using non performance based data in a closed loop, one neural data from EEG, and two using heart rate from a wearable that was captured during a full body motion capture video game called Body Brain Trainer.
Daniel Darling (00:10:38) - And sort of what time frame and results are we starting to see?
Dr. Adam Gazzaley (00:10:42) - Almost all of our studies are looking at around 10 hours of treatment over the course of a month or six weeks, and this is based on
Daniel Darling (00:10:50) - That's not a lot.
Dr. Adam Gazzaley (00:10:51) - No, it's not a lot. It's usually 30 minutes a day, three days a week, five for four weeks.
And we get meaningful effects. We get sustainability sometimes a month. Sometimes we have a couple of papers showing sustainable benefits a year later. So we just had two papers showing that. So it's work. And our games, as fun as we try to make them, are hard. Is the gym ever not hard? And if it's not hard, are you getting anything out of it?
It's sort of the same type of logic. The system is designed to push you consistently and that's what the closed loop does. And so that's the dose of our medicine that we usually give is around 10 hours, 12 hours. The last way I want to answer this is it's unlikely or not ideally going to be a one size fits all.
It's going to be the type of thing. If I have my way and we have our way that it's a data driven decision. In other words, you treat yourself and the data says you're good. You have a meaningful effect. We're going to test you again in two months and we're going to determine when you need a booster or if you need a booster based on data.
So ideally, no one will get just a one size fits all like you take this for six weeks or two weeks. It'll all be data driven. That's the future that we're aiming for.
Daniel Darling (00:12:05) - It sounds like almost a continuous companion that is very adaptive to you and is that because you start to see it just like exercise compound over time and start to see the changes in the brain become more cemented over time with use?
Dr. Adam Gazzaley (00:12:21) - 100%. That's exactly why. And also, it's worth just pausing on the fact that there's lots of individual differences. You know, some people are very responsive, some are less responsive, and using data to make the decisions about when your treatment is effective and when you need more, that's the way it should be.
That's the way it always should have been with any medicine that we've given. And, you know, the idea that you're starting on Adderall You'll be on for who knows how long, maybe your whole life. It's just not ideal. That's not what we should be shooting for in our medicine. They should be, you know, even medicine should be surgical.
It should be in there, make the adjustment, monitor if you need more, but if not, get out.
Daniel Darling (00:13:04) - Absolutely. And you know, we are talking about medicine here and you were the very first to have an FDA approved brain game, which is amazing. And now you're starting to see others in the industry also get approved, like Rejoin which is a smartphone app providing emotional training exercises to help manage depression.
That was approved just the other month. Are we going to start to see more digital therapies? Come onto the market and be more widely available to consumers. Now that you've set these kinds of precedents with the regulators.
Dr. Adam Gazzaley (00:13:33) - It seems inevitable to me. I mean, I, you know, because of where I said both you know, I'm a professor in a university, so I see a lot of academics interested, but I'm also an entrepreneur, I'm an investor.
So I sort of see it from all the perspectives and. There's a lot of activity in trying to validate games and non games like cognitive behavioral therapy and mobile forms. And it's not just in the U S to new digital therapeutics were just approved in South Korea. One of our games is now in regulatory pathway in Japan based on a trial that was done there that was successful.
And so this is not a U S story by any means. This is a, this is a human story. right across the board, we need better treatments for our minds.
Daniel Darling (00:14:20) - Absolutely. And it's remarkable because I first heard you talk about this, you know, 10 years ago now. So you've been, and you were, you know, developing this well before that as well.
But since then, since sensors, computing power, AI, they've all progressed immensely, and they're all kind of key inputs to, to how you deliver this. So how has this progress started to show up or is starting to show up more and more in what you're developing in these game plays and kind of where do you see these this all heading?
Dr. Adam Gazzaley (00:14:47) - Yeah, great question. So I would say I'll answer that in two ways. So my impressions, both from my own work in industry and also advising and knowing, you know, The pulse of what's going on around the world with companies is that the really super high level innovation and sensor signal processing, machine learning, AI, all of that is not being translated into products in the digital therapeutic world yet, largely because it's so hard to even take.
a completely de novo treatment through all of this regulatory approval, try to, you know, create a paradigm shift where doctors think about this as medicine, get insurance companies to reimburse even without all of the sophisticated advances that you described. So on the flip side, in the academic world, like notably Neuroscape, we use all those tools.
So we're already building, you know, the 10 year future of what digital interventions or what I think of as experiential medicine in general delivered via digital technologies will be. And so we have studies now that instead of your sensory input, just being from a tablet or even a head mounted display, their full sensory immersion, see, hear, smell, and feel rich data being processed using, you know, the latest advances in.
biosensors as well as signal processing and then using sophisticated machine learning approaches to interpret that data and to really give, you know, these much richer, more real world, more adaptive experiences. Even now starting to think about the role of generative AI in creating these environments based upon physiological data as opposed to a text prompt.
So That I believe is the future of closed loop digital therapeutics and experiential medicine. And we are working on that right now.
Daniel Darling (00:16:45) - That's exciting. And I want to, I want to tackle two of those buckets. So one is you said the immersion part or sort of like getting as close to, I guess, realism as possible.
And you even mentioned things like, you know, smell and feel as part of that. Can you just unpack that a little bit further and how that actually works for a patient?
Dr. Adam Gazzaley (00:17:03) - It's a hypothesis that a more real world environment because it's more ecologically valid and it's also using larger networks in your brain, multiple senses and larger motoric networks, that it will lead to bigger effects.
So that is the the direction that we're heading. We think that the effects will be larger than you're getting with more impoverished sensory stimulation. And we have now a full sensory immersion lab in NeuroScape. So incredible 120 inch display, full surround sound, scent delivery, wind, one person sensory laboratory.
Daniel Darling (00:17:40) - You know, that immersion sounds really visceral from that perspective. And the other part that I wanted to tackle was. The creation using generative AI of the actual experience that is being shown to the patient, which must be taking a whole leap forward, given the fact that now we can create videos and visuals on the fly using AI.
Are you starting to see that in your lab?
Dr. Adam Gazzaley (00:18:01) - 100%. We're already starting those conversations. It's early. I mean, you know, my real dream is full immersive environments that are created generatively. And to do that, not using text prompts, but your physiology. So if you're feeling joy and relaxation, given our multimodal biosensing and real time interpretive analysis, we will know that we will know the environment that's fostering that.
And a generative system can create. More of that environment to keep you in that state. That's the direction that we're heading. You know, right now, all of our closed loop systems essentially work by a process or a computer or a tablet, whatever, grabbing essentially digital assets, right? Like stimuli and sound clips and different elements that are being adapted based upon your data, but it still requires pre pre processing.
Loading it with all of these aspects and not really doing it fully generatively, no one's really gone to the level that I'm describing right now, but it's a future that we are working towards. That's such a
Daniel Darling (00:19:08) - big idea that extends even beyond your field, the notion of, okay, I'm not prompting the system to provide me something deliberately, but my physiology and my brain is essentially communicating itself, what I want to say or more of.
back to the system it's creating from there. How do you see that playing out on a wider lens?
Dr. Adam Gazzaley (00:19:27) - I think it's the future of digital medicine. I think that everything that we're doing, all these closed loop therapeutics, one day, maybe a decade from now, will have both a multimodal biosensing aspect, so it's not just capturing Performance or EG, but it's capturing all of the data.
We have such a system now it will involve AI both on the interpretive side. So we know what's going on your state in the moment and on the generative side, and then it'll be presented in a full multisensory immersive environment. That's the type of tool that I hope we have accessible to us that can be used not just to correct when there is, you know, severe damage, like a traumatic brain injury or post traumatic stress disorder event, but even preventatively, like to avoid someone sliding into depression or attention deficit disorder to find the earliest signs that there's a change in In the brain of behavior that is going to be debilitating one day and prevent that through an environmental support like what we just described.
Daniel Darling (00:20:34) - Incredible. Incredible. And it starts to bring into view the technology of brain machine. Interfaces that's been popularized with Elon Musk's Neuralink. What's your view on that potential?
Dr. Adam Gazzaley (00:20:45) - It shows you that, you know, all the ways that we interface our brains with computers are all part of the same general genre, and we can do that noninvasively or invasively.
I tend to focus my efforts noninvasively because I'm interested in shorter term impact and large scale. I just don't see that happening with invasive implants. It's certainly not going to happen immediately and it's certainly not going to be for everyone. Now I am in no way saying that we shouldn't be proceeding in that direction.
I think for people, you know, with quadriplegia and you know, lots of other neurological conditions that are completely debilitating this type of closed loop system that is more direct in contact with the brain. may be appropriate. You know, I don't think that of them is competitive. A matter of fact, even with an implantable invasive brain computer interface, I still think the type of sensory environment type of challenges and rewards that I've been describing would work perfectly.
You still need to drive the network activation through experience, I would say, in order to get maximal effect.
Daniel Darling (00:21:59) - You talk a lot about building these sort of immersive environments, and then you've also written about the idea of introducing a molecule, which is essentially psychedelics, though into the mix, which I think is really fascinating, would probably make for a really intense emotive response to what's been shown.
Can you talk a little bit about that partnership and how sort of psychedelics and digital therapies could, could co evolve?
Dr. Adam Gazzaley (00:22:22) - 100%. So there was a long time that I thought, you know, psychedelics was an interesting field. I, I see the data being generated clinically. I was more than happy that my colleagues were working on it, but I didn't think it would be something that I'd work on and something that we do at .
And then my perspective shifted and I realized that psychedelics are also a type of experiential medicine. And it was with that like simple realization that It all shifted for me. And I realized that if psychedelics are leading to an experience that leads to an outcome, then it is exactly what we already study.
We study how experiences could change the brain in a meaningful, sustainable way, how environment, especially digitally delivered stimuli that are based upon physiology can personalize those experiences. How about if we couple it with a psychedelic that has its plasticity inducing effects and also perspective cognitive shifting aspects which are beneficial for many populations, could we bring them together?
Could we use a digitally guided environment based upon real time data to lower the dose of a psychedelic where you don't need to have it The trip be the entire therapeutic and then have them work together so that you actually have a closed loop psychedelic treatment, right? You can't really close the loop on a psychedelic treatment now because once the molecules in you can't make less of it or more of it, but you can.
guide the environment, which would guide the experience. And so my hypothesis is that we'll be able to have safer, more effective psychedelic treatments, even more targeted, coupling them with digitally presented experiences that are are guided by that person's data. So that's the future and that's what we're working on already.
Daniel Darling (00:24:15) - That sounds like a really powerful thing for someone to experience. And is there something around a psychedelic that is making the brain more plastic or more sort of has that plasticity about it that would make your treatment more effective?
Dr. Adam Gazzaley (00:24:28) - Exactly. That's what the data suggests, including, you know, and especially the animal research showing changes in spine density and synaptogenesis in animals that are exposed to psilocybin, for example.
So it's that plasticity inducing effect that's I don't know, most interesting, but very interesting to me. Maybe even in microdose amounts, that would be beneficial. But also in higher doses, I think that perspective shifting, ego reducing aspect of psychedelics, the real experiential aspect, also has therapeutic benefits.
So I see both of those as playing a role in our research.
Daniel Darling (00:25:03) - I'd like to shift a little bit of the topic of technologies wider. Impact on our minds and society at large that we spend more time than ever in front of our screens and the content that is coming from them is increasingly sophisticated, adaptable, intelligent.
So surely just like you're deliberately trying to see changes and impacts to our brain from your perspective, our digital daily diet must be having some kind of impact to to us. So from a scientific perspective, what evidence he's seeing of the impact of technology that is having on our minds?
Dr. Adam Gazzaley (00:25:36) - You know, I wrote a book largely on this topic called The Distracted Mind
Some of it's still there for survival and it really impacts how we interact with our environment because that's what the brain does. The brain interacts with our environment. That's like the purpose of the brain, find food, avoid predators, you know, stay alive. And now our new environment is just very different from the one it evolved in.
And so it creates some really challenging circumstances. Like I'll just give one example, our brains, our attention system is multifactorial. So we have top down attention, the attention that we're both doing right now that your listeners are presumably doing where You're making a choice about what you want to pay attention to.
And you're directing what you're hearing, what you're seeing to that. And as best you can, you're resisting and suppressing distraction from the myriad of outside sources that are also vying for your attention. But the other attention is called bottom up attention. And that is how those outside forces, the environment itself is sort of imposing upon your goals.
And so, you know, the really obvious ones are like, if someone called your name, or if there was like an explosion or a flash of light, you would pay attention to it. 100 percent you have no choice, but all those even more subtle ones, the notification, the fact that you might have another tab opener screen here, there's a link here.
These are bottom up draws that are, you know, designed to pull our attention where others might want it to be. And so we have this constant competition between top down and bottom up. And it is a lot of what creates, you know, the challenges of all of us dealing with our technology. If you're not really conscious of this, you can easily just be bottom up drawn and pulled throughout your entire day, where you're not really using your goals to guide your behavior, but rather having these bottom up stimuli guided.
So that's one aspect and maybe just to give your listeners another is that we also have these reward systems that were also beneficial for our survival and evolutionarily selected for such that we seek out new stimuli, you know, which helped us novel stimuli, which helps us find new food sources and primates and humans.
Being one of them have also were rewarded by information itself and data has shown this. And so at our core, we're really information seeking creatures. And so given the vast amount of information that's accessible to us right now, In our pockets or sitting in front of you, it makes sense why we're constantly drawn to these new sources and they could be communication information or not communication based information.
It's all absorbing to us. And so there's a lot of challenges from our environment, you know, lots of opportunity, but very, very real challenges to our brain that we're, you know, being presented with.
Daniel Darling (00:28:48) - I really like that framework. So can we now talk a little bit about the cutting edge research lab you founded at UCSF called ?
There must be such a density of amazing talent there, so what are you working on outside of what we've discussed so far?
Dr. Adam Gazzaley (00:29:03) - Well, this was pretty comprehensive for an hour, so I feel like we covered a lot of it. Our scope at is both broad and very focused at the same time. So how do we leverage all sorts of technologies that we've been discussing from multimodal biosensing to sensor technology, to signal processing, to machine learning and AI, to psychedelics?
We didn't even talk about non invasive brain stimulation like transcranial alternating current stimulation, which we also do quite a bit of. How do we bring all of those together to create new medicine? And when I say medicine, I actually mean beyond just helping people who are sick, but just elevating.
Enhancing the human mind. That's really what our focus is. And so those are the tools we use. We still a neuroscience center. We do a lot of recording just to understand mechanism and how the brain changes and how we might do that most effectively and the individual differences across. people. One of the other areas that we didn't talk about, I'm just thinking, what didn't we cover is that we have a pretty active program right now using a technology.
We developed a neuroscape called Nexus. And what this allows us to do is large scale, completely remote trials. which is not the status quo. Right now, it's still bricks and mortar multi site trials that guide the whole clinical trial field. But with digital technologies, especially those that are not dangerous, the goal should be to have larger and larger trials, ideally global trials, That decrease equity issues of like who can be in a study just because you happen to live near a university.
And so we created a platform that does everything remotely from authentication and consenting to randomization and characterization and treatment and outcome and follow up. Everything without meeting a participant. And so a lot of our work right now is all of the digital tools and technologies and interventions that we built both on the diagnostic and the therapeutic side.
Can we start doing really large scale global trials? That's my dream. That is a big part of my next 10 year mission is to break down the borders and the silos that we create around every country and start thinking about just the human mind and not like the U. S. brain and the. You know, UK brain and the South Korean brain, like we all have the same issues.
We all care about our parents and our kids in the same way. These silos are not helping anyone. And digital world is a great way to break down those silos. Since we have a lot of the same. Devices and Wi Fi connectivity and software are ready. So that's the goal is to start doing large trials. I would love to do the first million person randomized control trial on a digital intervention.
And that is happening in parallel to the deep dive work that I've been describing in the lab. So at one point, we're going deeper and deeper and multi modal recordings and A. I. and. Immersive environments and at the other side, we're going broader and broader with big digital distributed trials.
Daniel Darling (00:32:14) - Incredible. That's such a thought provoking notion. I could see things really speeding up in terms of our understanding of the impact of a lot of the work that you're doing on a global scale. So that's, that's, that's remarkable. Look forward to seeing that, but thanks so much. We could be talking about a lot of different topics, you know, throughout this because it's so fascinating, but really appreciate the work you're doing in the space and looking forward to, to watching it evolve as it feels like a real moment in time that is seeing a lot of tailwinds to some of the progress that you're doing.
So thank you, Adam, for, for coming on and chatting.
Dr. Adam Gazzaley (00:32:47) - Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to share. And I like that we covered a lot of ground in a short amount of time. So thanks so much for having me. Thank you.
Daniel Darling (00:32:55) - It's been almost 10 years since I first heard Adam talk about his closed loop digital therapies and it continues to impress me how clearly they paint the future direction of how we can best understand and improve our brain function.
We covered a wide range of topics but what stood out was that digital therapies will no longer need to rely on humans deliberately providing inputs via mouse clicks and taps for example, rather as senses become more sophisticated and algorithms faster at understanding. We could simply observe and be amazed Immersed in environments that adapt and change based on the responses triggered in our brains and bodies combined with the sensory enhancing effects of psychedelics.
And you can really feel how impactful these cognitive therapies could be. Not to mention the slim down versions of such immersive environments that could be delivered as part of our daily exercise routine by the devices in our pocket. Adam and his lab are very much worth a follow. You can find him on Twitter at @AdamGazz
I hope you enjoyed today's episode and please subscribe to the podcast to listen to more coming down the pipe. Until next time, thanks for listening and have a great rest of your day.
